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Posts tagged: antagonism

Over at the Edge of Vanilla, Tom Allen linked to Margot Weiss’s interview on Salon.com about her new book regarding the ways in which the BDSM Scene fails to live up to its own rhetoric of transgression. The comments on his blog, which is primarily read by chastity/orgasm denial enthusiasts, who are themselves a sub-niche of the sex blogging world related to but typically distinct from the BDSM Scene proper, prompted me to leave this (as-yet-unpublished) comment of my own:

Holy shit, Tom!

The comments on this post to date are the most disappointing and, frankly, largest pile of exactly the kind of privilege- and responsibility-denying bullshit that I’ve read about this, particularly MyKey’s ad-hominem ass hattery. And it’s no surprise to me that Peroxide’s ignorance is showing; Weiss’s scope was expressly defined as the public BDSM community, so his argument is not just derailing, it’s just fucking stupid.

Like I said on Twitter, if you’re surprised at any of this, you are sexist, racist, and/or classist, and it’s no wonder you do BDSM as an “escape.” It’s no wonder these commenters are jolted into ridiculous, defensive irrationality; THEY’RE PART OF THE PROBLEM. I’ll make no bones about making sure there are not going to be safe spaces for such behavior—those attitudes have got to end, and I’m going to end them one way or another. That’s a promise and a threat.

I’m incredibly disappointed in your blog readers, Tom. I’ll stick to the top half of your blog from now on. Disgusting.

This is particularly timely, considering the weekend I just had.

Sure enough, one of the previous commenters, a blogger named Scott who seems to write a pretty stereotypical Female-Led Relationship (FLR)/cuckoldry blog, left a reply to me, so I took the liberty of commenting again:

Hey Scott,

There was no need for personal attacks here when a measured rebuttal by you would have been more than sufficient.

screw you and your derailing bullshit.

I’ve never heard of you and have managed to get along just fine with that.

Obviously, it’s because you’ve never heard of me that informs why you’ve never heard me give “a measured rebuttal.” You didn’t bother to consider that possibility, though, did you?

So start by following some of the links I left in my previous comment (duh). And then, when you’ve exhausted yourself reading through those and what they link to, here are some more for you to start at:

And also, next time you make a fool of yourself, don’t expect someone to take the time to link you to places where you can educate yourself, far less to be nice about it. I mean really, has anyone who commented on this post so far even read Weiss’s book (or at least any of her other published articles)? My own review copy hasn’t arrived yet. And really, Scott, your questioning of Weiss’s age (“perhaps she’s too young to recall how repressive American society used to be”) is bordering on blatant sexism and ageism, since it’s a direct implication that she doesn’t know her history. If you’d actually read her work you’d know better than this, which doesn’t even get to the point that the whole “but it’s better now than it used to be!” argument being used [as] an excuse to dismiss today’s oppressive behavior should make any ethical person want to vomit all over you, and I sincerely hope they do. It’s your job to educate yourself about derailing and oppressive behavior and then change it. Capisce?

That goes double for any commenters who’ve read this far and still have the knee-jerk urge to say something dismissive of the points Weiss has been raising.

No surprise such shit-covered entrails came from the FLR blogosphere.

For posterity, here’s the rebuttal Scott offered this time:

Hi maymay,

I rest my case. I’ve tried to be civil.

Best,

scott
Mrs. Kelly’s Playhouse

My own rebuttal is even simpler:

Civility is no measure of veracity, Scott. (Again, duh.)

UPDATE: A discussion of the issues of sexism, racism, and classism continued in my next post, but Scott found it necessary to keep showing off how ignorant he is. Here is the rest of our conversation.

Scott wrote back:

maymay,

I really didn’t want to get sucked back into this but it appears that you want to create some sort of change in “the scene.” In order to do that you need to change the way scene people think and feel. You have had an opportunity here which you have nearly squandered.

Why do you think that calling people names is advantageous to your cause? Even if you know something that others don’t, that doesn’t mean that they’re incapable of understanding what you know. How does it help you or your cause to make enemies so unnecessarily? You don’t know us and, just as Peroxide pointed out, if you used a minimum of diplomacy you might have won us over without any struggle at all. As it stands, by your frontal assault, you’ve not only pushed us away from you but disinclined us to focus on your cause.

Diplomacy: “Skill in handling affairs without arousing hostility.”

You might consider it. When it works, it keeps us from killing each other.”

Best,

scott
Mrs. Kelly’s Playhouse

I replied (but, several days later, Tom has yet to publish this reply):

You’re missing the point (again), Scott. I don’t want to “win you over” at all. I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep if you disappeared forever or got hit by a bus tomorrow. Let me make this perfectly clear: I don’t give a shit about you and your presumption that I would, or even that I should, and your continued totally fucking privileged bullshit berating hostile interactions is precisely why I find your behavior not merely personally revolting, but systemically oppressive. Can you understand that or do you need me to spell it out more succinctly for you?

Now, since I’ve made that as clear as I can possibly make it, I intend to avoid interacting with you directly, so you’ll not get another direct response from me. Period.

I do my best to always mean what I say and say what I mean. This is the end of our interactions. Scott may want the last word. In that event, you’ll probably be able to find it on the full comment thread over at Tom’s blog.


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If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle.

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Be nice if you care more about credit than results

Over at one of my other blogs, there’s a really interesting (and very “angry”) discussion happening in the comments section of my most recent post, The Bus Driver and The Gadfly: What my activism looks like at BDSM parties. What started as a denunciation of tone arguments, thanks to some interesting coincidences today, turned into an opportunity to theorize on the relative values of different “styles” of activism. I’d say it’s worth checking out if you can stomach the vitriol, but for those who can’t and in order to isolate the meat from the bile and signal-boost the discussion, I’m cross-posting my own theorizing here:

[One] thing I’m learning more recently about “angry” activism versus more “polite” activism, is that it, too, faces an image problem (much like how I described femdom’s “image problem”, which I also linked to in an earlier comment) that creates a self-selecting pool of people who collectively discourage antagonism as a valid change agent.

I think it works like this: angry activists rock the boat, which may or may not get people to change their behavior, but if they do change their behavior they’re more likely to do so quietly and beneath-board, meaning there’s no public acknowledgement of the angry activists’ role, which makes an angry activist’s successes less visible (and we already know what having zero positive representation does to a group of people), which then perpetuates the idea that angry activism is “not effective,” or perhaps “not as effective as other styles of activism.”

I’m not certain, but my own anecdotes all seem to support this theory. Being greeted by a Kink, Inc. exec who clearly knew who I am is just one example that there absolutely were conversations over what I’d written about them even if the company never publicly acknowledged what I wrote. Of course, other times, companies are simply forced to publicly acknowledge this sort of thing, but they obviously prefer to put some spin on it.

So I’ve found the whole idea that being angry “doesn’t work” to be a load of crap. It very clearly does. But that being said, there does seem to be an inverse relationship between getting publicly acknowledged for making change and going about your change-making in a way others view as “being angry.”

I think one can correctly claim that I, as an “angry activist,” will not get much (or at least, as much) love or public acknowledgement from the community’s/company’s insiders for what I do. However, to use that as an argument saying “being angry is not effective” is just a hasty generalization.

What this seems to suggest is that if you care only about results and not about any credit, and you’re angry, then being the bad cop may be just as effective as being the good cop. However, if you care about results and credit, you’re better off being the good cop, because the bad cop won’t get as much credit as the good cop will.

And this gets really tricky, because I care more about results than credit, but I care about credit a little bit, too. Mostly, I care about credit because credit and recognition is more likely to earn me a place at the table (so to speak) so that I can get more results. That’s called having a VIP reputation and it’s kind of a fucked up thing in itself, but it seems to be how things work, especially in subcultures where one’s reputation and social ties to an elite ruling class is a strong currency, which has long been true of the BDSM Scene. (See also: The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman, 1970.)

I’m not sure what this means for me, yet, but it’s good to realize. So, now that I do, it’s something I’m going to start factoring into how I approach situations where I want to instigate change. And I thought it would be worth posting about here because it is similar to a discussion about whether “the bus driver” or “the gadfly” is an appropriate style of activism, and where to use one over the other.

Also, I should probably add that, on a personal note, I really like other activists’ “styles” because I think “it takes all types” is as true for activism as it is for sex-positivity generally. (Yay diversity!)

So if you’re not an angry activist, that’s not only cool, that’s great and may actually be one reason why I might want to collaborate with you. But should we collaborate on any BDSM-related projects, please understand that I’m probably going to be a better “bad cop” than a “diplomat” (at least for the time being), and I’d like you to respect the validity and effectiveness of that role, too. Thanks.

This is obviously a half-baked thought but seeing as it sparked some interesting mental modeling, I’d be interested in receiving more input (of any type, really, so I’ll leave it undefined).


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You lean on parties and profits. I lean on integrity and ideas. You have money. I have minds. You offer contentment. I offer expression.

Now listen closely, for this relates to your survival as much as to my own.

You are lying and you need to stop. You’re hurting too many people. Too many smiles are faked. Too many stories are silenced. Too many tears are made far too tragic.

You have a choice: look within yourself and excise that which is toxic, or watch me tear it out of you. I have already begun.

I will not stop. I will not play nice. I will not be quiet. I will not mourn you.

And, be warned, I am no longer alone.


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In 1936, the 32nd President of the United States, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, addressed the nation in a famous speech that feels as relevant today as it did back then:

For twelve years this Nation was afflicted with hear-nothing, see-nothing, do-nothing Government. The Nation looked to Government but the Government looked away. Nine mocking years with the golden calf and three long years of the scourge! Nine crazy years at the ticker and three long years in the breadlines! Nine mad years of mirage and three long years of despair! Powerful influences strive today to restore that kind of government with its doctrine that that Government is best which is most indifferent.

For nearly four years you have had an Administration which instead of twirling its thumbs has rolled up its sleeves. We will keep our sleeves rolled up.

We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace, business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred.

I think there are more parallels to draw from here than may at first meet the eye.


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A visual representation of Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement, also called the Argument Pyramid. Each layer in the pyramid can also be referred to as a numbered Disagreement Hierarchy level. For example, name-calling is sometimes referred to as DH1, while refutation is sometimes referred to as DH6.
In his words and from his essay, How to Disagree:


The web is turning writing into a conversation. Twenty years ago, writers wrote and readers read. The web lets readers respond, and increasingly they do—in comment threads, on forums, and in their own blog posts.
Many who respond to something disagree with it. That’s to be expected. Agreeing tends to motivate people less than disagreeing. And when you agree there’s less to say. You could expand on something the author said, but he has probably already explored the most interesting implications. When you disagree you’re entering territory he may not have explored.
The result is there’s a lot more disagreeing going on, especially measured by the word. That doesn’t mean people are getting angrier. The structural change in the way we communicate is enough to account for it. But though it’s not anger that’s driving the increase in disagreement, there’s a danger that the increase in disagreement will make people angrier. Particularly online, where it’s easy to say things you’d never say face to face.
If we’re all going to be disagreeing more, we should be careful to do it well. What does it mean to disagree well? Most readers can tell the difference between mere name-calling and a carefully reasoned refutation, but I think it would help to put names on the intermediate stages. So here’s an attempt at a disagreement hierarchy


See also: solving disputes.
Not to be confused with arguments that rest on the shoulders of other arguments, ala, an Argument Pyramid where an argument is an explanation, reasoning, rational, or story.
While I agree with the majority of Graham’s points, I do disagree with one of his main rationales (i.e., arguments). Graham says:

[W]hile DH levels don’t set a lower bound on the convincingness of a reply, they do set an upper bound. A DH6 response might be unconvincing, but a DH2 or lower response is always unconvincing.

If I’m reading Graham correctly, he’s saying that disagreeing by using ad-hominem and name-calling tactics are “always unconvincing.” However, then he says:

The most obvious advantage of classifying the forms of disagreement is that it will help people to evaluate what they read. In particular, it will help them to see through intellectually dishonest arguments. An eloquent speaker or writer can give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words. In fact that is probably the defining quality of a demagogue.

I’m left wondering: If an eloquent speaker or writer does successfully “give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words,” does this leave the opponent or, often more importantly, the unnamed third party in any dispute (the observer) convinced of their argument? Often, at least in my experience, the answer is yes. In fact, the widespread “successes” of demagogues are a testament that it’s not always necessary to be correct—that is, to be truthful or, in Graham’s words, intellectually honest—in one’s assertions to either realize a particular intent or to sway people’s minds, but rather one merely be right—that is, to be perceived as the winner of the dispute.
I both personally appreciate and sympathize with Graham’s clear and noble intent to bring more happiness to more people. I even agree that using higher DH levels will generally achieve more happiness during dispute resolution, but I remain unconvinced that higher DH levels are always more convincing (or, “useful,” or “effective”) than lower ones. This is not to discount the usefulness of understanding DH levels. After all, one must know the rule to break it well.
Perhaps the most useful example of situations where lower DH levels are, potentially, more useful is applicable to leadership. For example, David Logan speaks of 5 “tribal” stages of leadership. Stage 1 tribes are, in his words, “a group where people systematically sever relationships from functional tribes, and then pool together with people who think like they do.” People in a “stage 1 tribe” may be gang members, prison inmates, or anyone else who, effectively, believes that “life sucks.” Logan describes “tribes” from stage 1 all the way up through stage 5. A stage 3 tribe, he explains, “is the one that hits closest to home for many of us because it’s in stage 3 that many of us move. And we park. And we stay. Stage 3 says, ‘I’m great and you’re not.’”
Indeed, Logan’s not just talking about some nebulous notion of community, he’s talking about the way people move between communities, and, moreover, how they talk to each other when they do that—he’s talking about communication. Now, it should almost go without saying that convincing people of something is simply one part of communication, and if one is to communicate convincingly with others, one ought know how others communicate. Moreover, one ought identify these others explicitly: opponent(s), comrade(s), and observer(s).
How do each of these groups communicate? In what “tribal stages” are these three groups? In my experience, and in many disputes, one is attempting to convince one’s observers rather than one’s opponents, and the more observers there are—such as is afforded by the Internet’s development, as Graham states—the less likely it is that all of these observers are in the same tribal stage.
So Graham is correct when he says that “you find there is a lot more meanness down in DH1 than up in DH6.” But if we are willing to accept Logan’s conclusion that “leaders need to be able to talk at all the levels so that [one] can touch every person in society,” then Graham is incorrect when he asserts that “[y]ou don’t have to be mean when you have a real point to make. In fact, you don’t want to. If you have something real to say, being mean just gets in the way.”
I think, actually, it’s quite the contrary. Sometimes, being “mean” is the point. Moreover, depending on the context and, yes, perhaps counterintuitively, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. As Walt Whitman once famously said, “Do I contradict myself? Very well then: I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes.)”
For antagonism, dearest loves, is not in fact the inverse of intimacy.

A visual representation of Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement, also called the Argument Pyramid. Each layer in the pyramid can also be referred to as a numbered Disagreement Hierarchy level. For example, name-calling is sometimes referred to as DH1, while refutation is sometimes referred to as DH6.

In his words and from his essay, How to Disagree:

The web is turning writing into a conversation. Twenty years ago, writers wrote and readers read. The web lets readers respond, and increasingly they do—in comment threads, on forums, and in their own blog posts.

Many who respond to something disagree with it. That’s to be expected. Agreeing tends to motivate people less than disagreeing. And when you agree there’s less to say. You could expand on something the author said, but he has probably already explored the most interesting implications. When you disagree you’re entering territory he may not have explored.

The result is there’s a lot more disagreeing going on, especially measured by the word. That doesn’t mean people are getting angrier. The structural change in the way we communicate is enough to account for it. But though it’s not anger that’s driving the increase in disagreement, there’s a danger that the increase in disagreement will make people angrier. Particularly online, where it’s easy to say things you’d never say face to face.

If we’re all going to be disagreeing more, we should be careful to do it well. What does it mean to disagree well? Most readers can tell the difference between mere name-calling and a carefully reasoned refutation, but I think it would help to put names on the intermediate stages. So here’s an attempt at a disagreement hierarchy

See also: solving disputes.

Not to be confused with arguments that rest on the shoulders of other arguments, ala, an Argument Pyramid where an argument is an explanation, reasoning, rational, or story.

While I agree with the majority of Graham’s points, I do disagree with one of his main rationales (i.e., arguments). Graham says:

[W]hile DH levels don’t set a lower bound on the convincingness of a reply, they do set an upper bound. A DH6 response might be unconvincing, but a DH2 or lower response is always unconvincing.

If I’m reading Graham correctly, he’s saying that disagreeing by using ad-hominem and name-calling tactics are “always unconvincing.” However, then he says:

The most obvious advantage of classifying the forms of disagreement is that it will help people to evaluate what they read. In particular, it will help them to see through intellectually dishonest arguments. An eloquent speaker or writer can give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words. In fact that is probably the defining quality of a demagogue.

I’m left wondering: If an eloquent speaker or writer does successfully “give the impression of vanquishing an opponent merely by using forceful words,” does this leave the opponent or, often more importantly, the unnamed third party in any dispute (the observer) convinced of their argument? Often, at least in my experience, the answer is yes. In fact, the widespread “successes” of demagogues are a testament that it’s not always necessary to be correct—that is, to be truthful or, in Graham’s words, intellectually honest—in one’s assertions to either realize a particular intent or to sway people’s minds, but rather one merely be right—that is, to be perceived as the winner of the dispute.

I both personally appreciate and sympathize with Graham’s clear and noble intent to bring more happiness to more people. I even agree that using higher DH levels will generally achieve more happiness during dispute resolution, but I remain unconvinced that higher DH levels are always more convincing (or, “useful,” or “effective”) than lower ones. This is not to discount the usefulness of understanding DH levels. After all, one must know the rule to break it well.

Perhaps the most useful example of situations where lower DH levels are, potentially, more useful is applicable to leadership. For example, David Logan speaks of 5 “tribal” stages of leadership. Stage 1 tribes are, in his words, “a group where people systematically sever relationships from functional tribes, and then pool together with people who think like they do.” People in a “stage 1 tribe” may be gang members, prison inmates, or anyone else who, effectively, believes that “life sucks.” Logan describes “tribes” from stage 1 all the way up through stage 5. A stage 3 tribe, he explains, “is the one that hits closest to home for many of us because it’s in stage 3 that many of us move. And we park. And we stay. Stage 3 says, ‘I’m great and you’re not.’”

Indeed, Logan’s not just talking about some nebulous notion of community, he’s talking about the way people move between communities, and, moreover, how they talk to each other when they do that—he’s talking about communication. Now, it should almost go without saying that convincing people of something is simply one part of communication, and if one is to communicate convincingly with others, one ought know how others communicate. Moreover, one ought identify these others explicitly: opponent(s), comrade(s), and observer(s).

How do each of these groups communicate? In what “tribal stages” are these three groups? In my experience, and in many disputes, one is attempting to convince one’s observers rather than one’s opponents, and the more observers there are—such as is afforded by the Internet’s development, as Graham states—the less likely it is that all of these observers are in the same tribal stage.

So Graham is correct when he says that “you find there is a lot more meanness down in DH1 than up in DH6.” But if we are willing to accept Logan’s conclusion that “leaders need to be able to talk at all the levels so that [one] can touch every person in society,” then Graham is incorrect when he asserts that “[y]ou don’t have to be mean when you have a real point to make. In fact, you don’t want to. If you have something real to say, being mean just gets in the way.”

I think, actually, it’s quite the contrary. Sometimes, being “mean” is the point. Moreover, depending on the context and, yes, perhaps counterintuitively, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. As Walt Whitman once famously said, “Do I contradict myself? Very well then: I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes.)”

For antagonism, dearest loves, is not in fact the inverse of intimacy.


This blog is my job. If it moves you, please help me keep doing this Work by sharing some of your food, shelter, or money. Thank you!

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